Woman dies after being denied a termination

by Kieran O'Sullivan - Personal Capacity Wed Nov 14, 2012 15:41

Anne Lovett was fifteen when she died on 31 January 1984, after giving birth in a grotto in Granard, County Longford. She lay on the cold wet ground bleeding to death beside her dead baby for several hours. After that there was outrage and "seminal national debate" but no action. The time for talk is over action must now be taken, the idea that a woman can die in hospital to save a non-viable life is intolerable.

RTE Documentary on Anne Lovett
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/documentary-podcast-l....html

by Willow - Blowing in the wind Wed Nov 14, 2012 15:42

A young woman, a mother, a member of the medical profession, is dead. An abortion could have saved her life.

In France, they are not determining whether or not to provide abortions, they are aiming to make it free of charge for all who need same. This about women and choice.

Ireland stands in the dark. The Supreme Court ruled on the X case and subsequent cases.

This was a tragedy waiting to happen.

This pushes the requirements now beyond mental health and suicidal.

This woman, a mother is dead, and an abortion could have saved her life.

Ireland needs to come in line with provisions in our European neighbouring countries and NOW

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Wed Nov 14, 2012 17:45

The Doctors who refused the termination should have the licences to practice taken away. The members of the hospital ethics committee should be barred from ever having anything to do with a health service public or private.

by Des - None Wed Nov 14, 2012 18:34

A young woman has died and her death was completely avoidable. I think that's what some people call being 'pro life'. Sick!

by irishmarxism.net Wed Nov 14, 2012 19:21

This is one of those events that screams out at you. The crocodile tears of the politicians are nauseating, but if this is more than an individual tragedy it needs more than individual outrage. Will a new campaign be born? That may depend on the forces that are already organised.

by serf Wed Nov 14, 2012 19:31

FF / FG political procrastination kills another young woman totally unnecessarily.

by Doc Wed Nov 14, 2012 23:02

"The Doctors who refused the termination should have the licences to practice taken away."

As a doctor myself, this opinion is ass backwards. Docs hands are tied, if they perform the procedure they lose their licence (and probably more). Unfortunately, this highlights the murky legal situation the OBGYNs have to operate in, they know that its unviable yet since there is a heartbeat, nothing can be done as technically the child is still alive. I spoke with a few of my colleagues who are OBGYN (I'm not) and this is a nightmare situation for them.

The blame, I feel, falls squarely at the feet of government who, despite court rulings directing them to legislate for things like this have dragged their feet and tried to hide it under a carpet and hope no one notices. Well people sure as hell notice now, and they are pissed.

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Thu Nov 15, 2012 03:41

She was miscarrying. it was a question of time. They could have administered drugs to speed the process up. She was refused on religious grounds which are not legal grounds.

by Watching Many Thu Nov 15, 2012 08:11

It was the stuperstition called the Catholic Church which murdered her.

by Pepe Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:10

I don't think a country with such disregard for the lives of women and the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights should be allowed to hold the presidency of the EU next year. Not that I think much of the EU or the EU presidency, but I think a campaign to punish the murderous elite of this country in whatever little self-respect they hold would be a way to make them pay in some way for this monstrosity. This was deliberate murder and there is no ground on which this could be justifiable. This was misogyny and racism brought together (oh, this is a Catholic country, get used to our traditions, here we let women die). This is despicable, full stop.

Hope to see you all on Saturday at 4pm in Parnell Square to make our voices heard.

by Gearoid O Loingsigh Thu Nov 15, 2012 13:52

Irish doctors already apply the X Case judgement in various hospitales. Lack of clarity following the judgement is not the same as the status quo existing prior to the judgment. It is difficult to see the courts persuing someone for implementing a judgement. Take a look at this Fintan O Toole piece on the issue.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0904/1....html

by john throne - Facts for working people Thu Nov 15, 2012 19:30 loughfinn at aol dot com

Woman killed in Ireland by right wing ideas and policies of Roman Catholic hierarchy and their cowardly politicians.
The murder of the women in Ireland is world news. And so it should be. The Southern Irish state have laws that prevent or make abortion so difficult that it is just about impossible even when the life of the mother is at stake. They have the so called heartbeat law. That is that as long as a heartbeat exists in the fetus it cannot be aborted.

In Ireland a woman was ill in a Galway hospital. Her fetus was dying and all the hospital staff agreed it could not live. But it still had a heartbeat. The mother was in agony and she and her husband pleaded for the fetus to be aborted. But the staff said they could not do it as Ireland was " Catholic country" and they could not abort a fetus when its heart was still beating. (The mother was a Hindu) So they kept the woman in agony for another three days until the heartbeat stopped. Remember all agreed that the baby would not live.

The baby's heart eventually stopped beating. But by this time the mother was so ill by her ordeal that she died. This is a crime. it is murder. The all male anti women Catholic hierarchy imposed their views on this family and killed this mother. They are criminals. Along with them stands the cowardly politicians who would not legislate to change the law to give women the right to choose. They are also criminals

Two courageous women in the national parliament have taken a stand over the past period. Both are socialists. They are Clare Daly and Joan Collins. Some months ago they moved a bill to make abortion available. It was voted down by right wing politicians and even some claiming to be left such as SF. The result of the defeat of this bill is the the killing of this woman. These people who voted down this bill are scum.

The positive thing to come out of this is that demonstrations have been taking place all over Ireland. The majority of the population are enraged. Small towns, cities, the national parliament all are besieged by masses of people protesting and demanding change.

It should be noted that the Republican Party in the US, unbelievable seeing their recent election defeat, are still trying to push their denial of a women's right to choose. In Ohio a heart beat legislation similar to the one that killed the woman in Ireland is being prepared. These people are vicious.

Sean

by T Thu Nov 15, 2012 21:01

These screen shots show some of the reaction in various newspapers to the news on the death of Savita. They are from the UK Independent, Voice of Russa, The Hindu and The Times of India

UK Independent

Voice of Russia

The Hindu

The Times of India - Nov 15th

by Sarah Thu Nov 15, 2012 21:23

This should not be used as an excuse to legalise abortion on demand. As Dr Sam Coulter-Smith, master of the Rotunda Hospital, has said: "if the health is such a risk that there is a risk of death and we are dealing with a foetus that is not viable, there is only one answer to that question, we bring the pregnancy to an end.” The doctor in question could have legally brought the pregancy to an end. An investigation should be carried out as to why the decision was made.

by Elric Fri Nov 16, 2012 00:18

But the pregnancy wasn't brought to an end. Over the last couple of days many women have been on Liveline relating how they were left screaming in agony until the fetus died. No painkillers, no treatment.

A woman suffering from cancer had to go to England for an abortion, she was refused one in Cork by a Catholic ethics committee.

Never again. The X Case ruling must be legislated for.

by Elric Fri Nov 16, 2012 00:20

This is what we're up against. Sign beside a nun outside the GPO today.

by fred Fri Nov 16, 2012 01:51

"This should not be used as an excuse to legalise abortion on demand."

Sarah, our stupid laws are just a tax on poor people. They don't really stop abortions, merely transfer them to another geographical location, and make it harder for the poor to avail of.

If you are rich then it's just a minor inconvenience. You can book a first class flight online, book into the ritz for a night or two and maybe take in a show in the west end.

If you are a poor unfortunate girl from Tallaght with drug addict parents and signing on, dog help you. You can't afford the trip and the extra expense. Another unwanted child in already dire circumstances.

Irish law is essentially "if you are rich you can easily get an abortion but If you are poor then your life just got even worse. fuck you."

Thousands of Irish girls each year have extra stress and cost imposed at an already difficult time because of our stupid "head in the sand" catholic laws. This girl died because of them. Others suffer in hospital with unviable foetuses. It's time Ireland jettisoned it's morally bankrupt catholic ethos from our laws. It causes great misery for women. We all saw what the church did to our children. The catholic church has a well known history of misogyny too.

It's time we stopped listening to these people and enshrining their sexist prejudices in our laws.
Out with this stupid blasphemy law. Out with the hypocritical and life threatening abortion provisions.

Let women decide what to do with their own bodies, not a bunch of child rapists and their facilitators, representatives of a foreign power, dressed in black with the ear of conservative politicians.

by Willow - Human Rights Mother and Child Fri Nov 16, 2012 13:46

20 years since the Supreme Court decision and the X case.

Successive governments will not act. Why. It is cowardice.

Now let there be clarity via legislation.

Again Ireland is behind most other European countries. France are presently aiming to make it free to all women. The Pendulum in Ireland is very far right of centre and unjust.

One question

Do we know how many people read Indymedia? I guess many

by wageslave - (personal capacity) Mon Nov 19, 2012 04:34

if people wish to write a proper factual non racist article dealing specifically with India, it's social issues and it's unforgiving rapacious form of capitalism etc then you can do so, but this is not the place for such comments. Please stick to the topic of this thread. Thank you

by fred Mon Nov 19, 2012 04:57

You really get a sense of how repressive religion and it's guilt and shame permeated society on the topic of sex at that time. Meanwhile catholic priests continued to rape people's children and be protected and facilitated by church leaders. The church's misogyny and their cold fingers around our laws are still killing women



Some flavour of the abortion debate 1983:



Isn't it time we grew up as a society and faced reality and began to treat women properly. Their bodies, it should be their choice.

by Penny- SW Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:16

Alot of people here ar jumping to conclusions.
We must have a clear investigation ino why this poor woman died.
Irish doctors are legally obligied to give abortions if the womans life is at risk,but it is considered cessary to stabilise their condition first.
An abortion performed on a woman in a critical condition could result in her death.
Had Savita died of an abortion would people be as angry?
We need a thorough investigatin- not bluster and hysteria.
Talking about catholic priests or blasphamy laws or any other topic will not save women lives.

by Doc Mon Nov 19, 2012 23:11

"She was miscarrying. it was a question of time. They could have administered drugs to speed the process up. She was refused on religious grounds which are not legal grounds." - Gearoid

I don't want to be drawn in speculating on an issue where we don't have all the facts yet. There may have been improper conduct but everyone is relying on hearsay at the moment. However, I will contribute this: She had an incompetent cervix, with amniotic fluid leaking but the baby was still alive with a heartbeat. This does not mean that 100% baby will die, there have been a number of cases where it survived, it is just REALLY REALLY unlikely. However, this aspect of viability is a non-issue, as even if you have a child who has 100% chance of mortality, the doc cannot expedite that death unless there is a real, imminent and substantial risk to the life (not the health) of the mother. This is the crux of the issue, whether it was apparent that there was an evident, impending serious risk to her life at the time of abortion request. And here is where it gets murky.

Firstly, some accounts, notably the Irish Times timeline of events, show her having back pain at the time, with Savita only showing signs of compromise once the heartbeat had stopped and the baby removed. So, if this account is accurate, it may not have been appropriate in Ireland to perform and abortion as many women have backpain during these episodes, many get infections but very few would progress to sepsis and death, so does that consist of a serious and imminent risk to the mothers life? My gut says no, but again, and I have to be clear on this, we are only getting slivers of information and the devil is in the detail. If she was displaying signs of decompensation prior to the decision to remove/heart stopping then it may be a different story, but that information is not available, it will only be available from the patient notes, which the investigations will address.

Secondly what does a serious and imminent risk to he life of the mother mean? How do you measure that? What I am getting at is that one persons interpretation of serious risk is anothers reasonable risk, and despite medical advances there aren't that many investigations that you can do that could illustrate this. Thins such as severe hypotension, loss of conciousness, confusion, profuse bleeding are good indicators but by the time they appear, it may be too late.

As per the obstetricians quote that "this is a catholic country", it is reasonably clear to me within the context of the conversation that what he meant was that due to voting Catholics and politicians trepidation in addressing the issue, the legal situation has conspired to prevent them from performing an abortion. I do not think it was refused based on religious grounds. But that again is just my impression and one based on hearsay, and my experience in the field during my training.

by Elric Mon Nov 19, 2012 23:47

Savitas husband back in Ireland.

"Praveen has been asked to give his version of events to embassy officials and to his solicitor so he can have an input into the terms of reference of the HSE inquiry," a friend of Mr Halappanavar told the Herald today. "He has been deeply moved by the vigils which have taken place, especially seeing the thousands of people marching through Dublin. It has given him great comfort," he added.

Savita's brother, Sanjeev Yalagi, also said his family had been moved by the thousands of people who had taken part in vigils across Ireland at the weekend. "We cannot bring Savita back, but we hope there can be change so that women, whether they are Irish or from other countries, are treated differently in the future," he said.

Savita's father, Andanappa Yalagi, who is considering legal action, said: "We want the government of India to put pressure on Ireland to change the law so this won't happen again." ...

by highly qualified brain surgeon Tue Nov 20, 2012 00:53

First of all, just because someone calls themselves "doc" on the internet, doesn't mean they are a doctor. In fact, It doesn't mean anything at all. People should be careful not put any weight on such things.

Penny said:"An abortion performed on a woman in a critical condition could result in her death. Had Savita died of an abortion would people be as angry?
We need a thorough investigatin- not bluster and hysteria.
Talking about catholic priests or blasphamy laws or any other topic will not save women lives. "

making up strawman hypothetical situations for rhetorical purposes will not save people's lives either.
At least the person who talked about the catholic priests was talking about real events that actually occurred and real laws that exist on our statutes not hypothetical situations as rhetorical devices

what happened in granard to anne lovett was also a real situation caused by religious shame and guilt. nothing hypothetical there either.

The fact is, Savita did NOT die having an abortion. However it is very likely that she did die because she DIDN'T get an abortion in time because doctors were afraid for their own asses if they went against the catholic misogynistic ethos enshrined in our constitution, and they put that first before what was medically right.

As for investigations, reports, tribunals etc, well at this stage we all know that in Ireland, those are mostly used as a delaying tactic until the crucial moment has passed and nobody cares much anymore about the issue, and to avoid anybody important taking responsibility or blame for anything.

If this was a serious honest investigation then three people from the hospital would not be on the inquiry panel and it would be completed sooner, since all the interviews will be finished in three days.

Expect a long delay for the "report" which will then be ignored gathering dust on a shelf. Expect nobody to get blamed, nothing to change, and a big out of court settlement (from taxpayer funds) with the husband and/or family with no admission of liability by the HSE

Since it's not their money, what do the consultants or politicians or priests care how much of it is spent covering their asses.

Sometimes the cowardly backward way we behave in this country and the way the asses of the elites are protected really sucks and I am ashamed to be Irish.

by fred Tue Nov 20, 2012 01:11

"As per the obstetricians quote that "this is a catholic country", it is reasonably clear to me within the context of the conversation that what he meant was that due to voting Catholics and politicians trepidation in addressing the issue, the legal situation has conspired to prevent them from performing an abortion. I do not think it was refused based on religious grounds."

But the misogynistic laws enshrined in our constitution that caused the medical indecision / paralysis at that crucial time for Savita were created as a direct result of religious influence on the majority of the voting population.

If that's not religious grounds then what is

If religious ideas strongly influence a constitutional wording and a constitutional wording causes medical indecision at a crucial time then religious ideas are at the root of this. You cannot credibly say otherwise.

The medical decision was made knowing the laws were based on daft religious notions of morality, but the real crime on the part of doctors here is knowing that fact but still putting covering their own asses ahead of what was the right thing to do.

by fred Tue Nov 20, 2012 06:51

Savita's Husband objects to three members of the so called "enquiry" being from Galway hospital where the death occurred.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1120/....html

I wouldn't blame him!! He has no idea how sneaky religious, medical and especially political ass coverers can be has he?

by fred Tue Nov 20, 2012 07:21

Bishops: "cherish the ban against abortion"

I can't believe this is the year 2012.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-cherish-th....html

Women of Ireland, I implore you...Isn't it time for irish "pussy riot" type protests to break out in churches all over the country???!!!

another times opinion piece today with a very divisive comment section:
"Americans left agog at confused cruelty of Irish abortion law"
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1119/1...ia=mr

by W. Finnerty Tue Nov 20, 2012 08:07

Article 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads (in full):

"No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

The full text of the UDHR can be found at the following United Nations web site:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

==========

"Medical care that causes severe suffering for no justifiable reason can be considered cruel and inhuman, and in some cases, where there is state involvement and specific intent, it can be considered torture."

Failure to provide life-saving abortion:

"Human Rights Watch research into torture and CIDT in health settings includes health care providers' involvement in forcible anal and vaginal exams, female genital mutilation, and failure to provide life-saving abortion, palliative care and treatment for drug dependency."

Both of the two excerpts immediately above have been copied from the following Human Rights Watch www location:
http://www.hrw.org/node/87882

Related Link:
"Life saving abortion, No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment"
http://tinyurl.com/d7byl3l

by pregnancy in ireland today Wed Nov 21, 2012 22:19

I think its an absolute tragedy,a outrage,i hope the husband sues them for every penny,and the ''inquiry'',i believe will prove fruitless.As the people responsible for her death,are heading the inquiry,as that husband said,''i have no confidence in the HSE'',and either do i!
Miscarraiges in pregnancy are a lot more common than people would think,and some can prove dangerous,as we have seen from savitas case..

Im friends with a guy who has a new girlfriend who just had a miscarraige at 4 months,she was lucky it wasnt fatal or anything,but like she said to me the other day,to think that could have easily been me.And it coud have been her.This matters also to every woman in ireland,and especially those of child bearing age,and those who pregnant or thinking of getting pregnant..It matters to every husband or boyfriend,every father or mother..

From what i gather,an abortion is illegal,unless it is a danger to the mothers life,so on those grounds i would assume that they failed in their duty of care,and even if that was not the case,they(the state,and the medical staff)STILL FAILED TO SAVE A LIFE..

The government have blocked a vote on abortion in ireland,in 2012..Let me tell you this is not a democracy we live in,as we dont DECIDE what we vote on,they put thier yes no options before us,not the other way around..

by W. Finnerty Thu Nov 22, 2012 04:46

"I have seen the way my wife was treated in the hospital so I have no confidence that the HSE will do justice. Basically I don't have any confidence in the HSE." (Recent statement made by the husband of the late Savita Halappanavar.)

The above excerpt, relating to the recent death of Savita Halappanavar in University College Hospital Galway, is from the Roscommon Herald Newspaper. The full text of the Article (dated Wednesday, November 21, 2012) can be seen at:
http://www.roscommonherald.ie/2012/11/21/president-call...mily/

Basically, and allowing for the way my case is being treated by the HSE (Health Service Executive, Republic of Ireland) for the past several years, I don't have any confidence in the HSE either: having due regard for the fact that, among several other things, and for all practical purposes, Galway Hospital Consultant Dr Anne Jeffers appears to be still completely ignoring the entire contents of the registered letter I sent to her dated June 30th 2012. A scanned copy of the registered letter in question can be viewed at the following www location:
http://www.humanrightsireland.com/DrAnneJeffers/30June2...r.htm

Even more worrying, for me at least, is the fact that, as can also be seen at the www address immediately above, medical doctor and Health Minister Dr James Reilly TD was sent a copy of the June 30th 2012 letter through the registered post as well: and that -- for all practical purposes -- he appears to be completely ignoring the entire contents of the June 30th 2012 letter in question also.

Related Link:
"Dr Anne Jeffers, C-PTSD injuries, Dr James Reilly, Unconstitutional Legislation, William Finnerty"
http://tinyurl.com/buqw4ly